How You As A Musician Can Profit From Independent Musicians And Record Labels

By Mark Grove

"If you help enough musicians and create value for them, you'll succeed not just financially, but in the heart"
12/27/04

This article is a repost many of my readers want to see again and learn from on how to make money not just as a gigging musician, but serving other bands and benefiting from indie bands and labels. Basically, how to make money selling other band's CD's, promoting them and possibly managing or booking them.

Making money with your own band will limit most bands. Most bands don't make the kind of cash they deserve, and working in profitable Joint Ventures with bands, labels and agencies can be a great way to diversify and focus on one thing in music and making a good living from what you love, being a musician.

As well, making money as a musician in off the beaten path ways can challenge you and your band not just to be creative, but be sought after by bands, labels and agencies. Sounds good doesn't it?

Major labels decide whether your demo material will make it past the listening stage. In most cases it won't. Not because of any lack of ability or vision, but something that will sell big.This is why most bands should go the indie route.


For those musicians who simply hate major labels, and what A &R reps at majors think constitutes good music. Their chances of success at a major are slim to none. They know they're better off at a solid indie who's A & R staff understand their music,  or starting a label of their own.


Majors, because of the growing trend toward Independent labels and artists, majors will attempt more and more to corner the indie market and "partner up" with indies basically to either take them over at the expense of the bands the label brought into the deal. Meaning, if a band doesn't sell what a major wants they are usually over looked for bands that do sell.

Artist development at the major label is usually frowned upon for obvious reasons, and a band that sells 50,000 copies one year and 40,000 the next is considered a flop. In order for Indie/Major deals to flourish, band by band deals would be more suited to an indie's structure and distribution deals which Majors are good and will have to be the norm.

The days of offering promotional and tour support, and paying for studio time in order to recoup later off a band's sales and tour income--will be curtailed--if Major labels hope to have a future or good business relationships with indie labels or artists.

The future of Major label acts:

There are more and more alternative and metal acts ending up on major's and producing gold or platinum sales figures. But with the way they run their operation's strictly from a sales aspect the talent gets watered down because they want acts that produce numbers.

There are good talent pools within major label's, they just don't know how to use them to benefit the artist and develop them as they come along.The same can be said for the people who work at a Major and get shuffled out with the people that were there when a band first came into the major fold. There are good and bad A& R consultants at this level. Bands will have to have some knowledge of the business end of major/indie deals to succeed.

Read the article on hiring a Manager to learn the ins and outs of doing deals with people who think they're your friends. Indies in the future will do deals with majors will not be content with royalties in the 10 to 20 percent range. They will want to procure the lion's share which is rightfully theirs anyway. A&R will have to understand where an artist is coming from artistically and where they want their vision to take them.

If an A&R rep at a major represents metal acts which seems to be the trend currently and does not understand the music, and just sees numbers and not the progression of the artists music, then that rep has failed in the development of that artist. That's not to say that that an A&R specialist would not do well in a different genre of music where they click with the music, and the artist which is what we ultimately would like to see.

How about you?


A& R opportunities for indie artists like you:

There will be more opportunities with small and mid level size indie labels as A&R reps, and in artist relations for people who understand the music and not just the numbers. But for those who are go getters and choose to start their own labels and keep their grassroots following, finding their own niche and working with the bands to develop their music, not just a following.

Craig Aaronson Sr.Vice President of A& R at Warner Bros. said in an interview with Taxi the A& R specialist said A& R at Majors in the future would be used more in actually signing bands and overseeing the marketing of records. Once again my take on this subject differs from these major label people. These guys don't get it, do they!


Even at the Major level A& R reps should realize they should stick to figuring out if a certain band has material that is strong, original and whether it's right for the label and work to develop their material based on a bands vision not the label's. If A& R reps start doing other duties such as marketing and tour support they will lose their focus on a band and any artist progression will go right out the window.


Overall, I think that Independent labels and artists should work as a team to develop their own A& R divisions which help develop the artist and not hinder it. Majors that do start smaller labels dedicated to certain types of music can help an artist. But they still see it as one more way to dip into the Indie Pool at the expense of naive artists who are conned into giving up hefty portions of their album and merchandise sales. As well as tour support which are recouped afterwards.



Learning to spot opportunities outside the fray:

Learning how to start your own label can be one of the smartest moves you make to protect your songs and being able to write off any expenses to do with the business of music. If you're determined enough you will start recruiting artists and bands to submit material to you to be critiqued, and to see if their material is strong enough and suitable for your label.


This way you start your own A&R division within your own label. But remember to start letting musicians submit material that is within one genre first before spreading into different types of music. If you start letting any one submit material whether it's Metal or country, you won't be able to focus on one and have no direction.


One band at a time is what to focus on, and your biggest outlay will be for recording and making CDs to sell. So I usually say you should do short runs of 300 to start. A lot of people in the industry would not agree with me, but you need to be on the conservative side when coming out with an initial release.


As well protect your artists material at all costs by having them become members of publishing societies which collect royalties on behalf of musicians.


Selling your album takes ingenuity and innovation. So selling off stage and on line is your best bet. Having a band website is essential not to promote just the CD but the band as well. Promotion is important as well and once again don't go for mainstream radio or magazines. Don't waste your time sending CD's to every radio station or magazine and wasting your precious money. You are in this to make money not give out free stuff! Opt for College radio and online magazines which cater to your music.


Start at the local level and build from there as you begin booking out of town gigs. Other opportunities musicians should consider is writing articles on aspects of music they understand. Interview other bands as well on your website which draws more musicians and fans to it. Write reviews on equipment you use and ask if the manufacturer is looking for distributors. You could sell their equipment off your site in turn for writing articles on their products. You have to give before you get guys.


There are many ways to make money on the internet for musicians and I tell them to never give up. Look for other markets internationally to sell your Cd's. Possibly in Europe or the far east. Distribution deals and licensing out your album can work well if you have the drive to improve your musicianship and help others in the business with your own label or band.



A & R at the indie level will emerge big in the future and you might consider starting not just your own label but an A & R consultancy to help musicians figure out where they should be taking their music.


For me music is pretty much all I want to do and I don't feel I'm missing out on anything by doing just that. If you don't love music enough you won't do what's necessary, not just to succeed at it but do what you really want in life, and that's the spiritual benefit and accolades that come with being in the music industry and being a musician.


Mark Grove-CGP

Musicians, How To Stop Being Allergic To Success

Most musicians don't realize how money is really made in the music business or in any other business for that matter. Just the way it is. I'm not here to slag or put down anyone. That's not my intention. You need to hear the real goods guys.

By the way, this is a classic picture of Plant kissing Band Manager Peter Grant. Most bands wish they had good relationships with their managers or agents ,but don't. Most of what I say falls on deaf ears but I keep moving in this biz despite the naysayers. Most marginal bands seem to think that making money as a musician is some kind of mystical transaction that only happens to a privileged few. O you seem to think they must be doing something illegal or immoral to get major bookings.

Think what you want but I'll tell you like it is.

Why you Need a Thick Skin As a Musician

If you can't grow a thick skin as a musician or band you are basically going to make peanuts or give up altogether.

Here's a personal story.

 I worked with someone in the music business in 1985 and 86 booking blues bands in Southern Canada and the US Northeast. We were making some decent cash as an agency but nothing spectacular. We still worked regular jobs and worked doing something we loved. One day I went to use some of the agency money from our joint bank account which was at almost 9 grand in january 1986. To my dismay I saw that the account was in overdraft. What!

It seems that my business partner had literally absconded with the agency loot to the US and sought his fortune in the booking agency game in the US. I was pissed off for about a week when I realized that it was useless to try and get the cash back. He was in hiding until all this blew over. He was a bit of a wise guy who always took bold moves.

I was told by many others including relatives to get my cash back. To call the coppers. Why?

He was gone even though I knew I would see him someday even 20 years from then. I still had my own money and a good standing with people in the music business. I did see him but I just ignored him.

But wait...

The 2 blues bands we were handling got wind of all of this and decided to fly the agency coop and move on. Even though it didn't affect their bottom line they thought it did. They had friends tell them to get away from us and any agents and fly solo. They flew solo for a while and ended up quitting the biz. Too bad, they were great blues cats.

They could not develop a thick skin period.


I still had bookings for them lined up, and they were so adamant about going solo it affected their bookings and how much cash they were making. These bands thought I was doing something wrong and illegal regardless of it not affecting them. Figures. You think bands with major agencies worry about everything that happens as some sort of crisis? Hardly. They deal with it and move on. Don't give me any crap about them being better than other musicians and they have nothing to worry about.

They take care of business period.

I just got back to work booking bands and helping them media wise. That's all there is to it guys.


A Grave Warning For You The Musician:

You'll need to become immune to what happens to you and your band or the people who represent you, or become an also ran who gives up at the first sign of trouble.

You're not like that?  Are you?

The only blame a musician and agent should get is an inability to work together, or the inability of an agent to get bookings, or your band to not see that you have to actually work hard at this.

Only money made should ever get a vote in this music life.

Your Girlfriend or wife doesn't get a vote either, even though she thinks she does.

And neither does your Mother-In Law who hates with a passion the fact that her little girl married a musician. No she doesn't get a vote.

And other musicians other than your band don't get a vote either.

And most of all friends of yours who have something negative to say all the time about how you'll never make it, don't get a vote or a say in your life either. Don't let anyone have a say if they aren't involved directly in making cash for your band.

Can You Still grow a Thick Skin?

I really hope so. That way you can live out your dreams as a musician.

There is no better time than right now to start creating a thick skin so hard, that anything that happens in your music career you can deal with like a pro. If you can deal with the BS of the music industry and have a thick skin, then I have the perfect medication for you and your band.

And it's totally free.

Our free report is on how to work with other bands, open for them, create media for them and even book them and sell their CDs for a cut of action! You can even develop profitable cash centers that help your band make money working with indie labels as writers and promoters.

Your band will receive free monthly reports with tips on music business, guitar and gear tips and  receive a Free Musicians Instant Press Kit for 3 months from us here at Canadian Guitar Player. Stay tuned for more on the freebie press kit.

All for free and a lot more.

Just send us your email and name to:mdgrove@rock.com

Or you can click the big fat subscriber button in the right hand corner of our site. Just put your email and name in there.

Much success to all musicians, and I know you can develop that thick skin.

Mark Grove

How Your Band Can Make More Money Opening For Other Bands And Creating Money Making Joint Ventures

By Mark Grove

" If Your Band Wants Real Success, Approach The Band's You Can Create Value For And Don't Stop Challenging Yourself and Your Band Until You Make Lots Of Money" (Mark Grove)

This is an important repost guys. How to approach bands you want to open for and create so much value they'll work with you and you'll start making money gigging and getting a cut of someone else's action.

I keep on harping about playing for free and giving away your best material. Literally giving away the kitchen sink. Well, at least giving away your Mother -in-Law who hates you being a Musician.

Read down to the bottom of this golden-nugget filled report to find out how
your band can start it's own media.

The Realization:

The realization is no one knows who your band is--at least not yet. If your lead guitarist isn't the greatest thing since the Shred Master's Like Yngwie Malmsteen, Paul Gilbert,or Blues Guru Derek Trucks. Chances are you'll have to play for free for a while.

Mean while, play those Jam Sessions weekly even though you hate it like a passion sometimes. Open for other bands for free, and come out with a 3 or 5 song EP and give away a number of them for free.

For free? what in the hell are you talkin' bout Mark?

Yes, free. Just a small portion of them.

If you structure your band as a business when you first start out, you can actually write off the free CD's as a promotional business item expense. You may live in Canada, United States, South America, Asia or Europe. If you have a government that encourages indie music business, you'll be able to write off those expenses.

Work on writing more songs for your bands and other bands, and practice your ass off and give away songs on your bands website.

Giving Value Interviewing Other Band's:

Offer to interview other band's in your genre and set up audio and video podcasts of those interviews on  your website. This creates MASSIVE VALUE for other bands. Keep playing regularly opening up for other bands. Then start asking for money. Because, if a club booker only offers 50 to 100 bucks for opening or even head lining because of low attendance, work out a deal with the club booker and put that money in a bank account. Preferably, in a high interest ING Direct account. If you have a 3 piece band that money is useless to each member, other than a little spending money. Hardly worth it.

But you could take the money and use it in the business online or paying for gas to gigs, and writing that off as well. Besides giving value to other bands think about how to create value for your band. Creating even more Massive Value for other bands:

Set up videos and podcasts of other bands interviewing them on different aspects of the music business such as guitar and gear tips, music business, getting booked, recording-- what ever. Include subjects of interest to the musicians you're helping mainly. Get ideas from Guitar Player and Guitar World mags.

Be different when approaching bands you want to open for. Don't just be like every other band and say you'd like to open for them and here's our CD. Or I love this, come see us play or come watch us practice.

No!  Don't do that. Think differently. What kind of value can you provide them?

Those interviews you do with a band you want to open for can be free to musicians on your site and eventually used as how to material in E-books you can sell for even more value to musicians. Going back to opening up for musicians. Offer to start round table discussions at clubs with the headlining acts and interview them, and have fans turn out as well. This can be done before or after gigs. Keep on playing gigs and asking to open for other bands. This also gives you leverage with high paying gigs by creating value for clubs, bands and your fans.

You have created so much value with your free stuff, musicians will wonder, if your free stuff is this good the stuff like interviews, CD's, and how to stuff--the CDs and shows I have to pay for, for musicians must be incredible!

This little tip will help your band insurmountably when you become a headliner and start touring. But keep on creating value for other bands by continuing to give away so much value that you create fans of musicians, music industry people and your fans most of all.

Okay, How To Start Your Bands Own Media:

I'll keep it simple. Start by writing your own articles, bios and press kit material. Or get help from me. Tell other band members we're going to create our own media. Huh? Yeah, you're probably saying, I don't want to do that shit! If you're not getting any media interviews, do it yourself.

Yep. If you play even just one gig a week or a month for that matter, have a band member interview you before and after the gig with the audience present. Just a short interview. Now, to get a little leverage since you're bringing people out to a local club, ask the owner to bring out the media to watch the interview and your gig. Offer to write an article on the club as well.

Make sure you have someone from the band video tape the interview so you can put it on your band website. Another way to create your band's own media is to hook up a computer at the gig and have the video stream live on the internet.

http://ustream.tv is a great way to stream band interviews, shows and interviewing other bands for free. Or you can use freeconferencecall  which you can record interviews with musicians right over the phone and

download those interviews which other musicians and fans can listen to online to create even more value.

Start doing this interview process for every gig. Have other band members interview each other, and interview other band's as well. Create a service like I have and write articles for bands. Be their go to guy or band.

If you play mainly metal, target bands in that genre. Don't stray far from your genre. But stick to making money for your band. What I said about wanting to open for other band's by interviewing them regularly. Do it. Don't ask for anything in return. This is part of creating a music media empire. At some point make inroads with this band and open up for them. If it's for just 100 bucks, take it and bank the money for important band business. If they can't pay you, play it anyway.

By constantly doing interviews with this band and other bands,you'll create so much value they'll want to pay you a cut of the profits. Continue to do regular interviews with your bands and other ones you want to open for. If you provide a writing and media service like this for musicians, they'll love you for it while you work on  your own band material, jam and open for local and regional bands in bigger cities. Eventually, you'll open   for bands that play 2,000 seat theaters and big hockey arenas.

If you work it right, you'll continue to create media for your band, other bands and get paid for it. And you'll go on the road making at least 3 or 4 grand a night opening for bands you went out of your way to interview and create media for, not asking for anything in return. Not bad eh?

It's simpler than you think guys.

Email me:mdgrove@rock.com

Mark Grove

Musicians, What You Can Do To Help Your Fellow Player In These Tough Times, And Think Differently To Prosper

Hey everybody, just wanted you to know even though things seem a little bleak economy wise you can come out ahead and help other musicians. Think about it this way, even in the hardest times people always want to be entertained so they can get out and have fun away from thinking about their jobs, taxes, shitty government practices, and the Mother-In-Law who hates you being a musician.

 The Picture here is of Eric Clapton and Jeff Beck. I should know who the drummer is, but I'm at a loss. If anyone knows who it is email me.

For you the serious musician you should see the economic problems as an opportunity for you and your band to prosper. Most people think you can't possibly succeed, right? WRONNNG!

I know you can do what you want as a musician and I say this all the time to musicians. Okay, since I've blathered on enough here's the first little tip to help out a fellow musician this holiday season and all year long. Yep, get out of yourself and stop thinking about what you can get. Here's what ya do. Find a band who's music you like and respect locally, and interview them. Get to know them. Put the interview on your band site, and if the local club they play at doesn't get regular media attention bring out a local College writer who specializes in their style of music and have them interview the band as well.

Okay, keep on interviewing this band on a regular basis. Keep using College media writers, because they're more attuned to the pulse of music and what younger people are listening to. If your band isn't getting gigs regularly, you can do the same thing to help your band get media attention. But focus on this band to help them. After you do all that for about a couple months, ask this band if it would be okay for your band to open for them. Even do it for free if you have to, but try to work out a deal with the club and the band so you can get paid. Even if it's just a small amount.

But keep helping out that band. And by opening for them you get your band out there and chances are your band will get more gigs. Have the band you're helping open for your band as well. Implement a joint venture where both bands can make money. Keep interviewing this band on different aspects of their music so they are always in the media. Believe me, getting free publicity is easier than you think.

Ask the club where both bands are playing to hold a Press Conference to really shine the light on both bands. And come out with some quirky off the wall publicity stunt like having a musician dress up as some cartoon like character like Big Foot playing a guitar with an amp that's plugged in, who comes out of the wings and says "I started playing guitar because of these bands" and my band is destroying every place we play."

If the band you're helping is having a hard time selling their CD's offer to sell them for 20 percent of the profits. And if they are having a hard time getting gigs offer to book them as well, as long as both bands are helping each other. If the band you're helping just wants help for free after all that, move on to the next band. There are also a number of off the beaten path ways to publicize your band and others for free and make money.

First of all, help your fellow musician and give them a hand up not a hand out. Most musicians are grateful and will work with you so both bands can prosper. If your band needs help with publicity,bookings or creating a joint venture with another band, just email me.

So get out there and help your fellow musician.

Mark